Сообщений в теме: 227

[Alias]

Тут у нас с Вадимом дискуссия завязалась по линейке Трансильвании и т.п.Хочу напомнить, что эти фракции делались по остаточному принципу, так что есть по ним ещё "неосвоенный материал".От нашего друга Цэгорача:]]>Линейки балканских фракций]]>Обращу внимание на рисунки непосредственно от венгров1) Hajdú from 1606]]>http://img116.images...scan00032ec.jpg]]>2) (Székely) Veres Darabont 1570]]>http://img48.imagesh...darabont2it.jpg]]>3) Székely lófők (cavalry) mid 17th century, Székely Puskások 1620 and officer]]>http://img238.images...image=19dw2.jpg]]>4) Székely cavalry and foot cca 1680]]>http://img301.images...scan00026pg.jpg]]>5) Kék darabontok (officer and men) around 1600 and the streets they lived in in Gyulafehérvár.]]>http://img95.imagesh...scan00046qw.jpg]]>6) Huszárok cca1550 (early) later much liter, no armor!рисунок пропал7) Hajduk 17th century]]>http://img96.imagesh...scan00064ut.jpg]]>8) Polish, Cossack and Scotish merc (no mistake!!) late 16th century, early 17th]]>http://img97.imagesh...scan00073go.jpg]]>9) Germans in Transsylvanian service 17th century]]>http://img101.images...scan00087sg.jpg]]>10) Rumanian mercenaries for those interested. late 17th century]]>http://img134.images...scan00099gk.jpg]]>

[vadim1]

Вот чего мне бы хотелось добавить балканским фракциям:
1 кроат -карабинёр ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image28.html]]>
2 пеший кроат ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image38.html]]>
3 ополченец ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image48.html]]>
4 гусар с пистолетами ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image30.html]]>
5 ещё вариант ополченца ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image31.html]]>
6 лёгкий копейщик 1го уровня ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image33.html]]>
7 драгун пост реформ ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image34.html]]>
8 вариант ополченца ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image46.html]]>
9 вариант элитного гайдука ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image47.html]]>
10 пост реформенный рейтар ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image49.html]]>
11 вариант карабинёра ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image50.html]]>
12 гусар-копейщик 2го уровня ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image53.html]]>
13 охрана полководца ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image56.html]]>
14 отличный кроат-пистолетчик ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image58.html]]>
15 конный аркебузир - зап европе.. ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image60.html]]>
16 гв алебардист -зап европе ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image61.html]]>
17 вариант ополченца ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image61.html]]>

Хорошо бы сделать полные линейки типа
1) пехота стрелковая и рукопашная
1-ополченцы
2-основной тип
3-элита
2) кавлерия
1-лёгкая -стрелковая, копейная, с пистолетами
2-средняя
3-тяжёлая или элита

[Alias]

Вадим, я посоветую сначала почитать ту тему (вот она в нормальном виде - ]]>тыц]]>). Там люди (румыны и венгры) свои соображения высказывали, линейки сделали и т.п. Плюс присутствуют иллюстрации действительно румынских и трансильванских солдат.

В твоем списке просто видно желание "вставить вот эти все прикольные юниты".
К примеру,

1 кроат -карабинёр ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image28.html]]>
2 пеший кроат ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image38.html]]>

я уже говорил, что это хорватский юнит (Кроатиа - Хорватия), и Трансильвании, и дунайским княжествам до неё довольно далеко.

17 вариант ополченца ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image61.html]]>

Это вообще имперский сержант

3 ополченец ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image48.html]]>

Есть аналогичные венгерские (а не хорватские) гайдуки:
]]>http://img96.imagesh...scan00064ut.jpg]]>

Имеются также у них в линейке и "элитные гайдуки" (кёк драбанток), и гусары в разных вариациях, саксонское ополчение и т.д.
Может лучше эту информацию и использовать, а не лепить линейку Трансильвании из австро-хорватов?

Тут вот румыны: ]]>ТЫЦ]]>


Я тебя понимаю в том плане, что все такое красивое и обидно просто это не использовать. Могу свои прожекты регионалов Балкан и Малой Азии выложить - там вообще одних греков четыре штуки... Но есть типа как геймплей, с моделлерами напряги и - опять же - более подходящие для данных фракций изображения.

Вот что Цэгорач соорудил для Пик и Мушкетов (без общеевропейских юнитов):

Here is the list for PMTW ( MTW VI) - the one for OiM is beeing prepared, but for now please see if it is good enough.

It doesn't mention all western type units which Hungary get in the mod, though - only unique units.

UNIT LIST GENERALLY


-------------
PMTW - MTW VI EDITION
-------------

EARLY 1480 - 1572

MOLDAVIA/WALLACHIA
--------------------

INFANTRY
Razesi - peasant archers,
Munteni - mountain units, hide in open for ambushing, doublehanded axes,

CAVALRY - ALL CAN DISMOUNT IN OPEN BATTLE
Boieri - small number of arrows, lance, good armour, shields, BODYGUARDS
Curteni - retainers, more arrows, lance, armour, shields,
Strajeri - border guards, lances, bows, shields and swords



HUNGARY/TRANSYLVANIA
---------------------


INFANTRY
Gyalogszékelyek - light infantry for ambushing enemies, hide in open, mercenaries,
----> from High --> Hajdú puskások - musketeers - for Hungary and Poland, mercenaries,
----> from High --> Kék drabantok - good quality musketeers,

CAVALRY
Lovas hajdúk - irregular light cavalry - mercenaries
Huszárok - lance, armour, shield,
Rac - lance, shield, armour, but worse than hungarian hussars - shared with Poland, bonus in Serbia,

+ WARWAGONS



HIGH 1572-1648

MOLDAVIA/WALLACHIA
---------------------

INFANTRY
Razesi - still archers, but smaller units of better soldiers to represent more professional infantry,
Dorobanti - armed with arquebusiers, but with good h-t-h capabilities,


CAVALRY
Boieri - small number of arrows, lance, armour, shields, BODYGUARDS
Curteni - retainers, more arrows, lance, light armour, shields,
Plaiesi - no shield, bows,
Vanatori - mounted infantry, fire arms - form of Dragoons,


HUNGARY/TRANSYLVANIA
----------------------

INFANTRY
Székelyek - light infantry for ambushing enemies with muskets (small amount of ammunition), hide in open, mercenaries,
Hajdú puskások - musketeers - for Hungary and Poland, mercenaries,
Kék drabantok - good quality musketeers,

CAVALRY
Lovas hajdúk - irregular light cavalry - mercenaries
Huszárok - lance, armour, shield

+ WARWAGONS


LATE 1648+

NO MOLDAVIAN/WALLACHIAN FACTION - so the units will be available as regional ones
--------------------------------

Boieri - lance, chainmail, shield
Rosiori - lance, shield,
Calarisi - sabre,

HUNGARY/TRANSYLVANIA
---------------------

INFANTRY
Székelyek - light infantry for ambushing enemies with muskets (small amount of ammunition), hide in open, mercenaries,
Hajdú puskások - musketeers - for Hungary and Poland, mercenaries,
Kék drabantok - good quality musketeers,

CAVALRY
Lovas hajdúk - irregular light cavalry - mercenaries,
Huszárok - no lance, no armour, sabres only,
Kuruc - militia cavalry

Regards Cegorach

и другой вариант:

The Moldavian Army
The majority of details on the Moldavian military composition and tactics come from the reign of Stefan the Great. As such much of the earlier period is a matter of assumption based on later practises.
The core of any Moldavian army was the Oastea Mica (‘Small army’). This army was raised from the Ruler’s personal lands, cities and free villages and was supplemented by Boyars and their personal retinues. The Oastea Mica is thought to have numbered around 10,000 but by the end of Stefan’s reign this had risen to over 15,000. This is one of Stefan’s notable achievements. The Oastea Mica was, by is nature, the most effective fighting force the Moldavians could field.
In periods of emergency the Oastea Mica was bolstered by the raising of the Oastea Mare (‘Great army’). This army theoretically contained every able bodied free man available. Combined with the Oastea Mica its numbers could reach over 40,000 men. It was however rarely called upon in its full form. Stefan the Great made use of it on several occasions, usually in response to invasions by the Ottoman Turks.
]Pre-Stefan armies[/b
The Boyars
These Nobles were the core of the army. They provided cavalry on par with their Wallachian neighbours and the Spahis of the Ottoman Empire. Their equipment was usually chain or leather armour along with a shield, lance and bow. The terrain of Moldavia made adoption of the Western European heavy cavalry an impracticality. Though from the middle of the 15th century the richer Boyars may well have been emulated their Polish neighbours and have worn armour midway between their traditional equipment and that of a fully plated Knight. Like the later Polish armies the lightness of the cavalry equipment did not prevent the Boyars of both Moldavia and Wallachia developing a fiercesome reputation as close combat fighters. Many of the Boyars of Moldavia were of Lithuanian origin and so may well have been armed and dressed in styles similar to them.
Retainers (Viteji)
Moldavian retainers appear to have been recruited in a similar way to those of Poland and Lithuania. Each Boyar was expected to bring his own support group of mounted men. These Retainers were equipped in similar but lighter armour than their Boyar leaders. Like the Lithuanian and the Poles the retainers fought along side their Boyars rather than as distinct units.
Infantry
The majority of infantry were only ever called up under the Oastea Mare. These infantry were raised from the Peasants and as such could be very badly equipped. The vast majority though were at least equipped with a bow. These archers formed a large part of the military power of the Moldavian army. Deployed en masse and in the rough terrain that covered much of the country they were a formidable foe. Certainly by the time of Stefan the infantry contingents were mounted, dismounting to fight. This gave Moldavian armies unrivalled mobility, especially necessary when fighting the fast moving Tatars of the Crimea.
The army of Stefan the Great
On his accession to the throne Stefan reorganised and increased the size of the Moldavian army. The twenty years of conflict prior to his reign had dangerously weakened the state of Moldavia's military. The encroachment of the Nobles on the rights of the free peasantry had significantly reduced the numbers available to the Oastea Mare. Stefan's reforms tried to deal with this issue and to curb the power of the Boyars. The reforms initiated by Stefan are very similar to those use by the Ottomans in pacifying a captured area and for the raising of provincial Spahis. The Ottomans would weaken the power of the local nobility by transferring much of the military requirements on to 'gentry' or free peasants. Military service was by land grant from the central authority and failure to provide the required numbers and/or equipment was punishable by death. Both of these requirements were introduced under Stefan's reign.
The Boyars
Stefan did little to alter the raising of Boyar contingents, except to set down the precise number of men each was expected to bring. The wealth of the Boyar being used as a determining factor. Their equipment altered little from the pre-Stefan period.
The Retainers (Viteji)
Boyars continued to raise their own retainers for service alongside them. Stefan introduced land grants to free peasants and lesser Boyars. In return for the land and other political and economic privileges these lesser Boyars and free peasants were expected to provide military service. These new style retainers were equipped as previously but mustered under district commanders appointed by the Crown.
Infantry
These remained an important secondary part of the army. Stefan made good use of the Oastea Mare on several occasions during his reign. Part of Stefan's reforms was to include an infantry group in the Oastea Mica. This group was also raised by a system of land grants and were called Calarisi. They were mounted infantry and their main role was for ambushes, siege work and for fighting in terrain not suited to the cavalry. It is likely that they were better armed than the majority of the infantry levy but the bow was still likely to be the most used weapon.
Artillery
Stefan greatly increased the use of artillery in the army. Effective battlefield artillery was still in its infancy in this period. However due to Stefan's extensive use of field fortifications and favourable terrain the Moldavians were very adept at placing their artillery for maximum advantage.
Moldavian Tactics
Campaigns fought with in the borders of Moldavia almost always followed the same pattern. Initially enemy armies would be harassed by fast moving light horse and mounted infantry. Supply columns, camps and scouting parties were prime targets for the hit and run tactics of the Moldavians. These tactics would continue until the enemy forces reached an area where the Moldavians felt able to engage them in 'open' battle. Moldavian battles usually fell into two distinct phases. The first was deployment of the infantry and artillery in defensive terrain where superior enemy manoeuvrability or numbers could be negated. The Moldavian cavalry would deploy behind their infantry, often concealed from the enemy by the nature of the terrain. The main goal of the infantry and artillery was to break up or wear down enemy attacks. Once the enemy forces were judged to be heavily committed against their infantry or sufficiently 'worn down' the cavalry would launch a counter attack. Once the enemy were broken their followed a systematic pursuit by the cavalry. Both the Moldavian and Wallachians were particularly effective in their pursuit of broken enemy armies. Moldavian armies also made extensive use of battlefield fortifications to improve upon the natural terrain.


First. You should understand that it was incredibly hard to create those lists - they are supposed to be quite realistic and useful for the mod at the same time, so sometimes I made decisions you can disagree with. Anyway it is your mod, so you can choose what to add and what to remove, but I really put some effort in creating these 3 unit rosters.

Second. Often there is an incredible variaty of weaponry amongst on 'unit' - they were using all manner of weapons - spears, sabres, lances, shields, bows, pistols, arquebusiers - sometimes all of them !

Third. The names are in Romanian, but there is a problem that sometimes the same unit is described with several names at the same time, with a name of a completely different unit or even with a name which seems created by the guy who described it. Terrible !

All right let's start.

Generic

Wallachian and Moldavian ( + possibly Transylvanian) bodyguards were called Boieri de Casa or Copii de Casa.

THey were better armed than ordinary Boieri, so should be armed with lances, sabres and should be WELL armoured and possibly with shields as well. It is the only one truly generic unit I can propose.



WALLACHIA

The faction is famous of its light cavalry, but was using some quite interesting units of infantry as well ( including Transylvanian Haiduks).

The majority of its armies were made of cavalry.

Cavalry:

Boieri ( Wallachian Boyars - if you preferr the names in English - Boieri is the general term in Romanian),

Spear was the favourite weapon of the Wallachians, so their Boieri should use:

- lances ( in Polish called 'oseka' - with a hook added from one side - it was used to unhorse enemies even after the initial charge, a very good weapon,
- sabres,

- shields - usually curved as the Rac, Hungarian Hussars etc.

- armour - light, they were the elite so could afford it.

Curteni
(http://www.napoleon....llachiansx.html)
)
These were retainers of the Boyars. Should be armed in the same way, but without armour.

Calarisi

These were border guards. They should use either bow and spear or just bow and sabre. They were proffessional soldiers supposed to guard all the entries to Wallachia, especially the bridges/crosses over Danube.


Infantry:

Wasn't numerous, but should be there.

Strajeri

It was MOUNTED INFANTRY, but it is impossible to recreate their power correctly, unfortunatelly.

So they should be treated as infantry.

Armed with sabres and bows.

NOTE - sometimes they are called Seimeni or Voinici - I am not sure which name is correct, though.


Dorobanti

Guardians of the passes in Carpathia mountains.

Armed with double-handed axes and bows or arquebuses. In my opinion they should get the arquebuses to show that they were an elite unit.

Should be able to hide everywhere, in my opinion, because they usually were used to attack enemy from behind or to ambush him

++++ additional units++++++

Haiduks and Transylvanian Szekely - described later.


MOLDAVIA

In later XVIth century it was quite poor country and its army was much worse than during the reign of Stefan the Great.
For this reason their cavalry should be less numerous.

Cavalry:

Boieri ( Moldavian Boyars)

Moldavian armies were always using a large number of archers, for this reason their Boieri should use:

- sabres,
- bows,
+ armour - I don't think they should use shields.

Curteni and Strajeri ( this infantry) should use the same equipment as the Wallachians - in fact these units should be SHARED by the both factions

Calarisi

Moldavian Calarisi should use sabres and bows and no spears in my opinion.

Infantry:

Razesi

These were landowning peasants who provided the armies of Stefan the Great with a large nymber of willing to fight soldiers, however in later years their number was much smaller and their weapons were worse as well.

They should be armed with spears only, but should use normal, square formation.

Tarani also called Judete ( different source)

Peasantsa called to arms. Should use scythes and appear in large units, horde formation. Morale slightly higher than of the average peasantry.

++++++ additional units++++

+ Haiduks,

+ Tatars - the army of Moldavia was using a large number of those - from Budhak horde,

+ Cossacks - your choice which ones.

TRANSYLVANIA

Richer, more western and Hungarian-Romanian faction, sharing some units, but not all.

Boieri

Transylvanian Boyars were much more western in appearance.

These should use PISTOLS and sabres with usual armour as well. Possibly it is not completely realistic, but will give some flavour to the game.

Hungarian Hussars

The 'core' and the majority of the Tansylvanian armies.

Weaponry:
- lance ( 3 meters, hollow, but wasn't so stiff as the Husaria's so could BEND - I am not sure if it is possible to recreate it or if it is even worth trying),
- sabre,
- shield with wing,
- armour and helmet.

You can see it in Polish Armies plate 1 - Pskow 1581 - should be good enough.

Szekely

Szekels were both cavalry and infantry, but it seems more realistic to make them as cavalry.

Armed with spears and axes ( similar to Polish Pancerni in later period - called 'nadziak' + shields and no real armour.
(http://www.hhrf.org/..._talalkozo.html
]]>http://clmc.topnet.ro/anziksz/ezer/]]>
)
Infantry:

Haiduks

There is plenty of information in Polish roster. HUngarian Haiduks should wear different uniforms and use larger numbers in units. You can give them slightly better close combat capabilities, but it is not so important.

Saxon Militia

Transylvanian Germans were called 'Saxons'.

They provided Transylvanians with reliable infantry - usually town militia.

Should be halberdiers in armour and morions.

++++++++ additionally++++++

Cossacks - your choice,

+ western mercenaries - pikemen, musketeers etc,
+ sometimes even Poles, but I can't suggest anything.

NOTES

ALL cavalry units should get bonus fighting in snow and good stamina ( hardy),

ALL infantry should be experts in hiding in woods, be able to hide in long grass and have bonus when fighting in snow or in woods.

UNIFORMS

Thre were almost none really uniformed units - except Haiduks, Saxon Militia and possibly the Hussars, but there are some features useful to prepare all the models and skins:

- beards - all Wallachians were growing these - possibly it was popular amongst Moldavians and Transylvanians as well,
- large fur caps - the Wallachian cavalryman from POlish Armies ( plate - the siege of Danzig) is a good example,
- skeletons, skulls, devils images on shields were popular amongst the Wallachians - possibly amongst other two as well,

LINK

You know it ]]>http://pubwww.srce.hr/husar/]]>

but I want to have it in one place.

I will upgrade the rosters with more suggestions, but rather no more units will be added.

Regards Cegorach



Great job I'm reading a book "History of Romanians" at the time, when you making real work. I'm also working on that region, unfortunately more slowny because of my exams in Lublin.

Only few comments:
Wallachian and Moldavian ( + possibly Transylvanian) bodyguards were called Boieri de Casa or Copii de Casa. Majority of Transilvanian population are romanians, but rulers are not. We can't use romanian name for Transilvanian bodyguard.
Cossacks have to be available as a mercenaries. For Moldova maybe more numerous or cheaper.
I have been started to work with Transilvania only yesterday. Actually I have few interesting sources (more text than images). For example article about hungarian military tactics in XVI-XVII. Your english is better than mine and this is not only reason to cooperate on that Danube Region.
A few images of Transylvanians.
I'm sure that Bathory's hungarian soldiers form Pskov are similar to Transilvanian, because Stefan came to Pskov at 1577 - only 1 year before he left Transilvania


Jak chcesz mozesz pisac po Polsku - wrzucilem liste na ORG i tam bede czekac na reakcje.

Ulozenie tej listy zajelo duzo czasu, a zrobienie jej w tak dokladnej formie zawdzieczam grupom tematycznym na Yahoo, do ktorych niedawno przystapilem. Mam nawet wiecej informacji, ale odnosnie wczesnijeszego okresu - lacznie z historia Moldawii i Wolochow.

Co do Transylvanii zgadzam sie - wtedy faktycznie byla to czesc Wegier. Nie wiem jednak jakie nazwy beda preferowane - w jezykach narodowych z angielskimi/innymi opisami ( ta metode przyjelismy w Pike & Musket) czy moze wszystko po angielsku/rosyjsku/polsku - co wydaje mi sie nudne, no ale coz tam to JA 'rzadze' , tutaj Ronin

Pozdr. Cegorach


As far as I know they DIDN'T have any 'normal' infantry i.e. pikemen and musketeers and especially future line infantry.

The units closest to disciplined, reliable western infantry were Haiduks and Saxon Militia, Haiduks were even better in the XVIth century - they crushed Lancknechts at Lubieszow when in Poland for example.


BTW - sometimes I find it hard to understand you Ronin - so what with those lists ? I really have no idea what you tried to tell me...

Images can be found in the webside - where I posted this link - I know it is not sufficient number anyway, but we will have to use some common sense - it is almost impossible to find anything reliable enough.
In the end I can describe each unit the way I THINK it looked like, but it will never be fully reliable - it is impossible to find so good images as in case of Poland, Russia, Turkey or some others.

Regards Cegorach


+++++++++++++++++NEW UNITS++++++++++++++++++++

GENERIC

Arcasi - for Moldavia nad Wallachia

They were peasant archers in large, but poorly trained units. Poor morale, weak in close combat, but numerous and adding some firepower to both armies.

No real uniforms - peasants armed with bows and axes rather than sabres.

Panduri

LIke Bosnian Pandours. Outfits - check at Horse and Musket and at the Pandours 1 and 2 are perfect, especially 2.

Certainly worse than the original Pandours. They were like the line infantry - musketeers you are looking for. So very advanced unit and not very large.

MOLDAVIA ONLY

Moldavian Haiduks

THese guys were CAVALRYMEN. IN Moldavia light horsemen were sometimes called this way.

Armed with pistols or muskets. Good cavalry, but not capable to fight for long - mounted bandits in reality.

Check at Pike and Shot, the Croatian Light Carabinier 1640 in the link below for their outfits.

Plaiesi

Moldavian hunters. Marksmen.

Should appear in small numbers. Able to hide everywhere. Good in close combat, but should be annihilated by cavalry.
So their good close combat capabilities should come from bonuses ( woods, scrub, snow) rather than directly. Excellent morale, but not discipline.


WALLACHIA ONLY

Strajeri de Garda

It means they were guardians not the guards. These guys were usually foreign troops used to guard Wallachian palaces.

Armed with halberd they were in fact the only real Wallachian infantry - professionals and well armed. They should get western outfits. Not particulary good, but better than all the rest of Wallachian infantry anyway.

[vadim1]

Молдаво -румынские картинки я посмотрел -но по ним уже сделаныюниты ...Австрийские конные кроатские части комплектовались из венгров в основном...позднее их гусарами стали называть... так что костюм там схожий был -тем более что Хорватия одно времяВенгрии принадлежала...А дунайские княжества тоже испытывали сильное венгерское влияние..Если посмотреть на тех же румынских гайдуков - где принципиальная разница с хорватцкими ? -та же венгерская мода...а картинка качеством лучше..))Да, не мог бы ты на русский перевести предлогаемые линейки -а то я английский понимаю только со словарём или переводчиком )))

Сообщение отредактировал vadim1: 14 января 2009 - 19:05

[Alias]

Молдаво -румынские картинки я посмотрел -но по ним уже сделаныюниты ...

Оно-то да, но можно б было подправить-доработать при наличии "трудовых ресурсов".

Австрийские конные кроатские части комплектовались из венгров в основном...позднее их гусарами стали называть...

Но почему б тогда гусар не оставить Трансильвании, а кроатов сделать для габсбургов?

Если посмотреть на тех же румынских гайдуков - где принципиальная разница с хорватцкими ? -та же венгерская мода...

Ну, шапка меховая у них везде - прям национальный символ, господари все в них изображены )) У венгров же небольшая шапка с пером - отличительный признак.А так - мне валахи-молдаване и казаков запарожских напоминают. А венгры - поляков. Это все ясно. Но мы ведь наоборот стараемся особенности передать.По рисункам Вукича - ИМнХО - ты б лучше выбрал троих-четырех юнитов-регионалов (кроат, ускок, ещё там кто-то) для Габсбургов и пр. фракций чем тулить их в трансильванскую линейку.

Да, не мог бы ты на русский перевести предлогаемые линейки -а то я английский понимаю только со словарём или переводчиком )))

Ок, но не гарантирую, что это будет особо быстро - на работе СиЧъ вроде вообще прикрыли,а дома все времени нет ))

[Akrit]

6 лёгкий копейщик 1го уровня ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image33.html]]>

Вот этого у нас разве нет?

7 драгун пост реформ ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image34.html]]>

А нынешние чем неугодили?

9 вариант элитного гайдука ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image47.html]]>

Про "Kék darabontok" слышал что-нибудь?

Alias, вадиму читать никчему он лучше всех всё знает... Венгры, хорваты, румыны один шут все из одного теста )))

А Цэгорач, кто такой вообще супротив вадима??? Ну и пусть он прочёл раз в 50 больше литературы по теме чем вадим, главное то не в этом, а в полёте фантазии, когда реалии одного периода натягиваются на другой, нации перемешиваются, а гусары спешиваются...(((

Молодец вадим пять баллов за дилетантизм, жаль Цэгорача здесь нет.

[hick]

Господа, не начинайте ругаться. Тереть буду.

[Alias]

Alias, вадиму читать никчему он лучше всех всё знает... Венгры, хорваты, румыны один шут все из одного теста )))А Цэгорач, кто такой вообще супротив вадима??? Ну и пусть он прочёл раз в 50 больше литературы по теме чем вадим, главное то не в этом, а в полёте фантазии, когда реалии одного периода натягиваются на другой, нации перемешиваются, а гусары спешиваются...(((Молодец вадим пять баллов за дилетантизм, жаль Цэгорача здесь нет.

Да ладно, давай друг на друга не гнать

[vadim1]

Господа, не начинайте ругаться. Тереть буду

Хорошо, не буду , хоть и хочеться...((
Akrit
Прошу быть корректнее в высказываниях..
То , что я предложил - лишь черновые наброски для обсуждения
так что давайте обсуждать а не обсирать...

Но почему б тогда гусар не оставить Трансильвании, а кроатов сделать для габсбургов

а сейчас , как это ни странно у Трансильвании нет гусар (лёгких), и гайдуков приличных тоже нет.
Одежда кроатов практически аналогична венгерской -если без предвзятости
сравнишь- убедишься сам. Поэтому рисунки можно использовать как для тех так и для других..

Но мы ведь наоборот стараемся особенности передать.

это понятно. но для разнообразия вполне можно и венгерский костюм в Валахии и Молдавии использовать -он в регионе широко распространён был -теже поляки по венгерской моде одевались...

Если по существу -чего как мне кажеться не хватает:
а) Трансильвания
1-ополченцев с ружьями на 1й уровень ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image48.html]]>
2-гайдуков на 2й уровень ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image47.html]]>
3-лёгких гусар с пиками ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image53.html]]>
4-лёгких гусар -стрелков -с пистолями или карабинами
-можно переделать из имеющихся австрийских -добавив огн.оружие

б) Австрии
1-конных кроатов-карабинёр ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image28.html]]>
2- пеших кроатов -стрелков ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image38.html]]>

в) Валахии и Молдавии
1-ополченцев с ружьями ]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image31.html]]>
2-лёкг кава с огнестр оружием-можно венгерского типа для разнообразия
]]>http://www.lemontree...es/image50.html]]>
3-панцирные конники -элита -бояре--при отсутствии рисунка можно
сделать типа польских панцирных в валашских папахах..))
4-лёгкая кава с пиками -можно на основе рисунков польских валашских
лёгкоконников.

Всё это естествено при наличаи желания и возможности у художников...

[Alias]

Я переведу линейку Цэгорача, подозреваю, что большинство перечисленного там есть. Так что немного подождем.
Подозреваю также, что большинства венгерских иллюстраций для Трансильвании будет достаточно.

Если посмотреть на тех же румынских гайдуков - где принципиальная разница с хорватцкими ? -та же венгерская мода...
а картинка качеством лучше..))

Ну, поскольку картинка сама - лишь информация для художника, то художественные качества картинки (если она отображает всю небходимую информацию про костюм, вооружение) роли не играют